Meeting Title: Teker consultant Robin's insights on product management and project workflow challenges Date: Dec 8 Transcript: Me: No. Don't be. Come on. Is which which one of us didn't have meetings that that that run over? If if if you want some time to chill, if you need some time to breathe out, if you need, like, a drink or or snack, we can also do it at half if you want to, but yeah. It's it's okay. Don't don't worry. I also want to to apologize. But working the the camera on on my MacBook. Yeah. No. The screen's fine. But the camera itself stopped working. So I I'm using my iPhone as a a camera on a thing. But it's higher than it's, like, taller, It's, like, taller right now than than I am. And as of sometimes, like, I'm I'm looking at you right here on on my screen. The camera is a little bit up here, so it might look like I'm not looking at you. I yeah. I want to apologize for that. Might come across as a little bit impolite, but I I don't I don't I don't need this to be. Alright? Okay. So Robin, I mean, thank you for taking the time, and thank you for for letting me for for letting me be here. Bonjour, hello. Does this work? Are we here? Robin: Hello? Yes, Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Hold on. Let me find the tab. Yeah. Now you There you are. Hello, Daniel. Me: It doesn't ever stop, does it? It doesn't matter how many hours you do of online calls. Always ask the same questions. Does it work? Where's the tab? What's up? Robin: Yeah. No. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, it's nice to it's nice to meet you. Me: Hey. Very nice to meet you too. How was your call? I'm Robin: I'm I'm physically present at the client side currently. I just found it at all. I don't know. Don't know. Didn't safely have a conversation with you. But it's a Me: That you could do with computers. I even have, like, a little I don't know if you see, like, a little command icon, tattooed as like a little symbol for it sounds weird. It sounds crazy. I know. Like, it's it's insane. But, like, I love compute a lot and computers can do, like, a lot of cool things. And so when it became time to do a couple of tattoos, this was one of the ones that I that I went for. I know. Sounds weird, but who is it? Robin: No. No. No. It's okay. It's okay. I mean, it's it's not wearing. It's quirky. Me: It's quirky. That's that's right. I hear I hear this sometimes, but I mean, Robin: Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Me: Yeah. Robin: So I'm Robin. As you correctly identified, I'm French. I I'm the lead consultant at Tekar. I've been working here for close to six months now. Before that, I was I was working at BCG. Me: Mhmm. Robin: You surely. Right? Me: Yep. Robin: Or consulting firm. And Me: I've done a bit of research on on LinkedIn. I've seen Robin: Oh, that's fair. That's fair. And I was working in a business. So, technically, I was based in Casablanca in Morocco, but, I mean, I I did a lot of projects in The Middle East in the Gulf Region. Over 30 plus client engagements, over four years and a half. And and I was affiliated with the digital technology and digital advantage practice, which basically means I I worked on AI project for banks, but but AI projects, like, a very high level. For example, prioritization of AI investments. I did the security, the cybersecurity strategy for a bunch of of large scale banks in the MENA region. I also worked in the industrial goods sector for a couple of large scale projects. I I like my job there, but unfortunately or unfortunately, I I need the person whom I'm going to marry one day. Me: ना यह Robin: Even conveniently, and and and that person happened to be based in Munich no. Sorry. In Berlin in Berlin office. And I I applied for a transfer, and I didn't speak German. We rejected my transfer. And so I was like, okay. That I guess I'm gonna have to quit and to move to Berlin by my own means then. And so and but but to me, consulting is what I like to do. It's also something that I that I I think I'm I'm quite good at. And and so yeah. So for now, I'm I'm a lead consultant attacker. It's quite interesting. It closely resembles what I used to do at BCG, but but but what I do now is essentially I advise start ups that are typically VC backed. Me: Mhmm. Robin: On projects or key topics or key programs. It ranges from very strategic to very operational. Both are equally as interesting. I do have a soft spot for the for the strategic stuff. And and so yeah. And and on the side, I mean, obviously, part of what I'm getting paid for at Teger is also to contribute to to the development of the app because, as you know, we have a little bit of a consulting department within tech hour, but but it doesn't scale. Right? So we have to also generate ton of learnings from the consulting team to kind of inject them on the product And so this is within this framework that you and I are meeting today. Me: Yeah. I'm I forgot to mention one quick thing in the beginning. I'm sorry. But is it okay if the meeting's being recorded? I Robin: Probably Me: like, I'm like, if it's okay, I'm gonna take a transcript for later on. Just so I forgot to mention this. But alright. Listen. Sounds a lot of fun. If you like this kind of job. And, yeah, I've seen that, like, Tekker itself that the essence is to help companies during the scale phase. Robin: Yeah. Me: And there's all sorts of this. There's this, like, book that I forgot where it is from, from the guy who co created the iPod and then later on created, the Nest thermostats. And in his book, he basically he made, like, a cool made where he shown how how the company scale depending on the number of people in the team. And super easy up until five, five to 12, five to 20 kind of still manageable from 20 until 150. Robin: Yeah. Me: Pure from one fifty onwards. Robin: Yeah. Me: Set. You have 50 levels of managements and and stuff. And Robin: Yep. Me: it it it's it's a task. Like, I I can understand this. And if I may ask, so in your job, in your day to day base, So you are now in Munich or during other calls that you have remote from Berlin, What's like one thing that you did recently for them or with them The one, like, problem that you went through with the customers. Robin: Yeah. Sure. So Me: Sorry. Robin: I think I think one of the one of the the the the typical examples that I could give you is so we had a client which was a a deep tech company with a a mix of hardware and software components. It's a it's a company that that was about 200 employees, I wanna say. It's a it's a start of that had 200 employees. But but, yeah, an an extremely, like, a deep tech company, like, proper, like, a company with full of scientists. You know? And one of the challenges that they were facing is they were generating a ton of information internally Like, for example, you know, every time because it's a company that produced machines, And so every time, you know, you change your components in the machine or you're trying to innovate or something, you generate just a sheet ton of documentation every day. And so they they started having a a little bit of an issue with the information management. So right, with the management of all that information because it was siloed between different teams, obviously, between the software team and the hardware team, which kind of stalled their their innovation process, and it stalled the synergies. And and they had they had a weird weird internal system when it comes to manage of their information. So I was called in as as an external consultant to to define the information management strategy. It's a project that took, what, six weeks, I wanna say, with, like, three weeks of baselining and diagnosis. Then two weeks of identification of the the north Star, you know, those kind of, like, big strategic options kind of facilitate a bunch of meetings, and then two or three extra weeks of of work to really define the the the put together the transition road map, put together also the the business case of this information management kind of string program. Yeah. So that that's that I think that's that's a good description of a typical project that I would do at Teka. Me: I have two questions, if I may. So you say like, it was, like, a month and a half project and Robin: Yep. Me: one of the things was, like, basically defining this north star for them. So you help like, they came with the problem. They said, like, we can't process the information that we have. We generate all of these confluence docs or notion docs Robin: Yep. Me: or whatever it is, TXT files. However, even they do this. And I hear, like, six weeks in strategy. Right? So basically went into, like, helping them understand Robin: Yep. Me: what the actual problem is and why they would even need Robin: Well, Me: information management system Is this the fair assessment? Robin: Well, essentially, in the beginning, I believe I believe the Me: Mhmm. Robin: they knew that there was a problem with, like, with okay. So as I as I said before, I apologize. I'm very French and being French involves making a ton of romantic comparisons. Right? So you'll find me very often making romantic analogies. So it's like it's like looking at your at your at your marriage and thinking, wow. Something something smells bad here. And then you go to a couple therapists, and that person helps you kind of identify, well, okay. Well, it's because when you leave the on the side of the bed, then it gives you the the the signal that you're not being considered. And so to so the the this is almost what I was calling to do in the beginning to read baseline to be more precise in the definition of what what were the key challenges. And what were the the two, three, four questions maximum that we needed to crack in order to solve the problem. But in the beginning, sometimes you have a sense that the things are not going exactly right, but you can't pinpoint what's the exact source of the problem. Me: And so you're basic basically like, you heard a symptom, and you were trying to figure out the core problem, and then Robin: I was Me: maybe even they didn't need an information management system. Maybe they needed something else entire or maybe they did, but, like, figure out what they store. Robin: And they they did need one, for example, one of the the kind of the the false assumptions that they had made up until that point is the chase for an SSOT. A single source of truth, which is something that's that's just absolutely impossible to regulate in a company such as this one where it's impossible to plug every document on one platform. Me: Of course. Robin: Because they they had this this motto of it doesn't live on that platform, then it doesn't exist. But then, for example, people had to submit their expense reports on Confluence as well, it was like, why would you do that? And so so we moved to a a system of records model, where where, actually, the information was living closer to where it was initially created. You know, a couple of key questions like this. Like, they had never taken five minutes to really consider whether or not they they needed to have an SSOT or whether it was a fallacy. And I think I think this was one of the the for example, the the the that I unveiled throughout the course of this product. Me: And in this system of records model, like, I can also imagine if it's you say, 200 plus employees company. So, like, they also might have all sorts of weird, like, system administrator stuff. Each employee use anything they want or if they or may then they do but they don't tell anyone and then you have to kind of like merge all of this together. And is my assumption correct that you won't with them, like, walked through with them like, what the benefits would be of letting people have their own, let's say, sources of truth. Robin: Yeah. I mean, the the the obviously, part of my job includes doing those best practice Me: Yeah. Robin: identification analysis. Correct? And, and one of the best practices today has emerged that has emerged quite recently. Is the the systems, where you have, for example, software such as Glean that will come and and kind of orchestrate the system of records model where Glenn, I don't know whether you're familiar with the tool, but, essentially, it's like a Me: Yeah. Robin: it's an internal chat GPT that will log on only to internal sources, and and you will ask a question such as, what were the sales of our product in the Brandenburg region in 2011 and it will it will go look for this information without yourself having to log on to Salesforce or the equivalent and, you know, look at the records. So the a a system of records, it's like have multiple pillars, and then you have a rug as the orchestrator. As the orchestration layer kind of the the the roof or Me: I can imagine even, like, recently, it wasn't even Now, like, for example, Confluence has this robot thing. Notion has Notion AI. Robin: Yeah. Me: And if if it's if it if, like, you find a way to feed the information, Robin: Yeah. Me: into a thing, then you can ask a thing. And every because also the problem, I imagine, Robin: Yeah. Me: is of okay. You have generated the the transcript or you have generated the You have generated a thing for this knowledge base. Now what? Like, now somebody needs to interact with it. It somehow. And previously, like, pre 2021, 2022, what it would mean is, like, every employee would also have to write, like, a FAQ Robin: Yep. Me: blah blah blah blah blah, unscalable. So this is what you held Robin: Yep. Me: them kind of identify. If I may, what was in the end after these months and a half? You had this month and a half of back and forth of meetings of blah blah blah. What was in the end like your final output? Like, did you deliver an email? Did you deliver a big confluence page? Did you deliver a good night out? Like, what was in the end the thing where you have looked at this thing and you said, okay. Job well done or not well done, but job done. Thanks very much. We move on now. Robin: Yeah. So I I I wanna say I was I was trained, obviously, at BCG in a system that is very classical. You know? So it's it's you have your phases, For each of your phases, you have one deliverable, and you have to have at least one what we used to call those big shine meetings. Me: Big Robin: So we've got a lot sorry? Me: What? Robin: Big shiny meetings. Me: Alright. Robin: Essentially, like, a nice meeting with a mix of, like, senior stakeholders in the room, for example, executives. You also have a bunch of, like, contributors that may be mid level managers or the the, like, a meeting that really makes a little bit of noise internally where you have a nice shell a shell voice as a as the external consultant. And you are presenting your your analysis and your your output. In a way that is compelling to the clients whether, like, a nicely wrapped storyline mentioned. And so to me, this is this is the way that I that I'm very much structure my work nowadays. So I divide it in in different phases. Each phase is associated with one major deliverable, then you have kind of subdeliverable. So for example, if the deliverable is the the the the business case, then it will be a mix of slides. Me: Alright. Robin: And also an excellent model or equivalent to Google Slides, Google Sheets, whatever. So And and also it will be accompanied by a shining meeting with, for example, the CFO plus the chief of operations, and you present your findings. And you you get their validation and their buy in for for this strategy because typically, it requires a little bit of k capex, but then you also you would explain the strategic rationale behind it and so on and so forth. So, yeah, these are Me: And to to Robin: where my my deliverables and yeah, Me: And to to to provide them so, like, let's say this is your output. If I am now Robin: Yeah. Me: talking, you are a computer, let's say. Your output is this deliverable. The out the deliverable should help people in the big shiny meeting understand let's say, what exactly is going wrong. Or maybe this is the second big shiny meeting, you propose some sort of a solution or you propose a vector to to Robin: We Me: to follow. And it's a little slide or it's a PowerPoint presentation or if it's like a little website or just a PDF or a of PDFs, whatever that might be. Robin: It works. Me: As an input, worse Robin: Sorry. Me: I I heard Robin: Sorry. Me: I heard Robin: See that Me: I couldn't hear what you said. I thought you said worse. Robin: No. No. I just No. No. I just I just nodded. I was like, yeah. Me: Okay. As an input, Robin: Yeah. Me: like, into your brain that can produce all of this. Like, you took I suppose, in person interviews. Right? Did you transcribe these in person interviews, did you, like, put them all from your head or did you write them down into a notepad? Robin: Well, typically typically, I mean, obviously, there are there are there are as you can imagine, it's there are a bunch of different sources. Right? So you you typically go through a spree of 15 to 20, maybe, one on one interview with with Me: Mhmm. Robin: client stakeholders. Those interviews are Me: Alright. Robin: are obviously automatically transcribed by Google Gemini. Then also I take handwritten notes because because it allows me to stay focused and to and to kind of identify what were the key messages given to me during that that interview. But that's the point because I never leverage actually what I write I handwrite to bring those meetings. But then, obviously, if if you're just there to provide kind of a glorified summary of their insights, it's not you know, you don't necessarily deserve your your daily rates. So then you confirm that with a best pro on the market. For example, you confirm that with leveraging the the experts that are part of the technical network. You confirm that with a bunch of different things. You you think about it yourself. You take some time to reflect a little bit on this. You you you know example, if it's financial while you build the X amount, and you quickly realize whether or not the the return on each euro invested is is positive or negative. You kind of look at the different variables that may change the output of this equation, so on and so forth. So, yeah, those are the different sources that I typically leverage. Me: I don't know if I may ask this Like, I I I'm gonna ask this because I signed an NDA, and I'm just gonna go for it. But, like, is there a way for me to to see an example of this? Robin: Well, the the so here's the thing, Daniel. So the I I I Me: Alright. Robin: so no. But no. But but but but but it's not for the reason you think First of all, I I know you've signed an NDA, but I but I but I I and I I will have no problem, for example, show you know, showing you a client document or whatever. But here, I really don't think it's warranted, and I think also FYI, I think you are straying a bit far from the the purpose of this interview because or for you, I'm saying because I don't I I'm not assessing you today. But but the thing is, you are supposed to identify a problem that I have with the taker app, correct, to develop the feature. Me: I'm get Robin: And and by diving too deep on my client facing work, I believe we we are straying a little bit further than we might want to from the the the what should be the meat of our conversation today? Me: I understand why you're coming like this. I'm just I'm assuming we have an hour. Robin: What do we do? Half an hour. Me: Right? And so from from this, we are now, like, let's say, approaching a half, and I'm trying to understand a couple of things. Robin: Yep. Me: A is, like, what is it that you do exactly, like, on your day to day? B, obviously, you are paid to do a thing. Right? And so you produce a thing or multiple things. And then there are this is like my my next question would be in that direction. It's like you have a set of inputs, have a set of you have an output. You mentioned these strategic oh, sorry, like, best practices on the market, for example. Similar strategic documents or similar strategic frameworks that you apply in your day to day. What I'm interested in, like, before coming to the software part is, like, why is it that you do something that you do? How you do this? And then was just, let's say, in quotes, is just a tool. And I would ask you, but let's let's jump in here directly is so to produce all of this, what do you use? Like, do you use Notion AI? Do you use tech software? Because also from the little chat with Philip that I had, I heard some consultants use taker software, some not so much. Robin: Yeah. Me: Right? And so this would also be one of the things. But let's first concentrate for me is, like, what do you use to make this happen? Do you just open chat GPT? Robin: That question. So I think there are a bunch of different sources that I leverage here. First of all, so I won't say I go about it into two different ways when I'm looking for best practices. Your your prompt is about your question specifically is how do I identify what are the five best practices regarding information management on the market. Right? Me: No. No. I think this is something that you are Robin: Sorry. Me: let's say, not born with, but this is a thing that you have developed already. And know them. And this is, like, you have the experience for this. I'm more interested in having taken these or or or knowing this input, on knowing the best practice Robin: Yeah. Me: how do you leverage them in in helping you do your work? And I suppose you software for this. So there should be some magic happening be behind what you have figured out with the customer, what you know yourself, and then the out that you bring to the magic meeting. Robin: I mean, I can yeah. Let's let's let's take one example. Which is the one that we've taken this far apart whether or not there should be a single source of Me: Okay. Robin: truth. Right? So for this so this was one of the the kind of three driving questions that that I I decided to ask at the end of phase one because I was, like, okay. Thus far, you have made the assumption that you should have that you have been hell bent on having a an SSOT could we really go forward in that direction? So then you you essentially, when you're in my position, you you leverage two types of resources. You leverage academic research papers about, know, what are the trends, For example, I use a tool called consensus AI. I don't know whether you've ever used it. It's an excellent AI tool that that enables you to look at research papers. And to and and it will tell you if you ask it, like, a yes, no question. It will say, well, the scientific consensus around that question is 90% yes. So for example, if you type in hey, consensus AI. Is the is the earth flat? It will say, well, the scientific consensus is a 100%. No. The earth is not flat. So and then it cites, like, a bunch of research papers, so then you you deep dive on those a little bit. Me: Mhmm. Robin: So these are like, this is my first set of of sources. My second set of sources is I identify comparable companies, and then I benchmarks. Typically, there are you will look at companies that are listed so that publish their their financial records or that publish a yearly report. And, for example, in The US, the SEC regulations are super strict on what the company should publish Typically, they have, for example, a conference license, they are they they they are mandated to disclose that to the SEC. So you look at the I think it's called the the the ten one k, something among those lines. 10 b k. Me: Yeah. Robin: And and you look at their their SEC submissions, and and there you you find it's a it's a it's a treasure trove of information. And and you look at companies that are more or less comparable to clients, at least you find, like, points of comparison and they're like, okay. Why? This company has done this, maybe this is an example. And then you kind of lay the different options on the table. So option one is gonna be keep going with your SSOT model. You have this company right here that does it, and it does it for this and this reason. Then you have option two, which is have a system of records model without an orchestration layer. And then you have another model, which is have the the records with the orchestration layer, then you present sort of findings to the client. You make them vote in person. Then they choose example, in that case, to go for the system of records plus orchestration. And then you detail the business model behind it. Me: Fair enough. Alright. And for this, so you have so Consensus AI is a good example I've never heard probably because Uni is way like, way back for me. So I I haven't had to interact with academic papers in a in a while. Maybe even thank god. I don't know. You have them. You have the Robin: Also, by the way, I I know how old you are, but it's also you know, it's been ten years for me. Me: Right? It's like my my university the universe otherwise said, like, when I studied, I had none of the tools that are available right now. And I'm sometimes wondering what would, like, the academic three, four, five years at at the uni be right now, like, I'm not even talking about essay writing with. It's like, Robin: That is Me: Right? You Robin: Absolutely. Me: you had so you take you take the pop One of the things that you take is that you take these publicly available statements from people that go, do the IPOs or from companies, sorry, that do IPOs. That they have to disclose, obviously. Is it then that you do the sketches for the ideas in in apple notes? You do this, like, in Notion. You do this you don't do this at all. Like, it's just Robin: PowerPoint. Me: Typically, sorry. So you jump in directly into Power Point. Does Copilot help you there somehow? Robin: Absolutely not. I don't go myself. Me: Right. Robin: I sometimes I'll doodle my slides on with, like, a good old pen and paper. But, otherwise, yeah, I I do use a PowerPoint or Google Slides as, like, a primary tool because because it's a tool that's very useful for visualization. Me: Of course. Yeah. And as you have correct correctly identified, why not taker? Like, is there anything in the software Robin: Yeah. Yep. Me: that the company provides to you that like, you don't Robin: Well, Me: you don't maybe even want to open this. Maybe there's the functionality that's, lacking. Maybe you are, like, super used to Robin: That's Me: the existing ways you do this. Like, why why did you never once mention the taker software so far? Robin: This is a this is a very fair point. So okay, Daniel. Oof. This is no. This is a massive question, and I and I have to do a little bit of a data dumps here on you. Be Me: Got it. Robin: So I understand. I'm the first consultant that you're speaking to for the for the takeout internal process. Right? Okay. Here I go. Do you have you been introduced to the taker app? Do you know what it looks like, what it does, Me: The company Robin: The the the app, do you know what it does? Me: The app itself? No. Robin: Okay. So, essentially, I believe if I were you, I would be highly motivated to join a product manager, but not because your job will be easy. Because there is a good challenge to crack here. Because the thing is our app at the moment, it has a lot of potential, but it just simply we haven't Me: Anything. Robin: cracked the the billion dollar the value proposition that will make us a killer app on the market. We just haven't cracked it. Personally, I use the tech app for a bunch of different features For example, I use it at the beginning of a project where a client will call me or will call and will say, hey. We would potentially need your support or we would like your consulting support for such and such project. Could you please come back promptly to us with a quote you know, a a rough idea of how long that project would take, how it would be structured, who it would mobilize internally, how much it would cost, etcetera, etcetera. So is extremely good at kind of ingesting a bunch of documentation, and, also, it's good at because there are there are some APIs with some tools, start up related tools, that you know, quickly fill in, and they it it understands the context quite well. Then you you prompted to give you a project execution plan. You say, well, I have to twelve weeks. Here is my daily rate. I wanna roughly do this. Then it's gonna take your project, divide it, like, it's gonna generate a gauge chart. It's going to divide it in work streams, in deliverables, Me: Yep. Robin: and in subactivities for each deliverable. So typically, I use it for this. And then once the project has been validated, by the client, I use it as, like, a project management tool. Well, essentially, I'll I'll every time, for example, I I'm I'm completing a deliverable, I'll read that on on the the app to say, hey. This this task is now complete. However, I don't use it as a as a co pilot for Quantum creation. I because it's it's not good enough. It's simply not good enough. And it's it's it's an app that that that is too much of a generalist. But to the point of, like, you know, yeah, exactly. And it's not like it's it's junk of all trades, but master of none. You know? It's but but really master of none, though. Like, so the so the and and one time, we we had Me: Mhmm. Note a specialist in one thing. Robin: kind of performed an experimentation with a a set of clients. Well, we we did a workshop with them on the key challenges, in their tech organization. And then we identify two or three priority kind of initiatives, high leverage initiatives, and we're identified owners for those initiatives. We plugged the the owners onto the taker app, and we guided their use of the taker app to define their project execution plan or their initiative execution plan. And and and I was in charge of kind of overseeing the use of the tech up by the set by this set of clients. And the the the the obviously, the guy that used the first couple of days, it worked quite well. But then as it dropped, Me: Yep. Yep. Robin: right, it dropped this. And and the number of logs that we got on our platform, well, like, closely going from, like, eight to 10 to zero the next day because there was no there was no nothing that would make you come back, you know, It's like having, you know, the going on a date, and the person really only has one quality. So are you gonna go on a second date, on a third date? Are you gonna have kids? You know, it's like, blah blah blah blah. Me: Yeah. Robin: Like, just each each runs dry. The interest that you have, it kind of windles. And and so this is example, yeah, I would never use it as a content creation companion, at least not not in its current form. And and, personally, but this is only my personal belief. I don't speak on behalf of the company when I say that, but I don't believe that we should move in that direction because because a content creation copilot is just there are so many bullets to take and such few reward to get from this situation because Me: Ice Robin: yeah. I don't Me: Ice. Robin: but I'm this is open to like, when you're on the job, Daniel, you're, like, the product manager in charge of defining the product road map, I am fully aware that one of these days, we're gonna have a conversation, and you're gonna say, Robert, thank you very much for your input. I need you to fuck all the way off. Because the priorities for the product have been set. You know? And so I it's like, I think it's okay, but but as a Me: Yeah. Robin: now, my preference would be that we don't go in the direction of content creation. Me: I understand. My my if I may stake take, like, a little step back, I was more looking for the ways of because as you correctly said, you are the first one that I'm talking to. Robin: Yep. Me: And the that I have about the app comes from the emails, from the research on LinkedIn, on your website, general Gemini research about a company that other people say elsewhere on the Internet just to basically, like, check. Okay. Right. Tecker helps scale helps scale using the knowledge or or helps consultants with their job among many other things. Right? And then there's like the idea consultants do the work and then there is the idea of software like does the work, it's supervised by consultants and they guide it, they steer it, and the software helps them make specific decisions. The question that I asked about the copilot was more of this is the first time that I heard a specific tool that you use in your job, a specific LLM or sorry, specific AI tool Robin: Yeah. Me: that you use in your job, be it an LLM, be it another generative AI thing, And in all of this, as you've said, like, a couple of questions ago, was like, okay. Where is in in all of this is Techer? Right? Question is, do you think on otherwise said, is it a fair assessment for me to assume that you are not the only one from the consultants of this opinion? Or do you have it at company, other consultants that like, are willing to die on a hill of one of one and a half features or of one idea that maybe wasn't turned into a feature just yet. That they find super useful. Robin: This is an interesting question. So here's my answer. I believe I believe we we are very, very intelligent I, like, I think I at least I think so. Like, believe we are we are and we are all very opinionated as well. And and because Teker is such a small startup as of now, we feel a lot of, like and even I've been at the company for six months now, but I feel a lot of, like you know, it's very close to my heart. Me: Mhmm. Robin: This product. So I felt very strongly about it. I believe I am not the only one as you said, that that has a strong opinion about the the the the direction that the the app should take in the future. However, I believe each one of us has a different opinion. Me: Of course. Robin: You know? So it's it's very difficult be very difficult for you once you're on the jump to kind of make a to find a consensus there because you are looking at a parliament that is very divided with, like, six people, six different parties. And so it's gonna be very difficult for you to to to make a decision here Philip, for example, has a strong preference for kind of spraying around the the innovation for the tool, really trying everything. Like, he's a he's a pro at the Vibe Coding difference features. So he'll this and try that and see what stakes and see what doesn't. And but so, yeah, I'm not the only one who believes that there are some features that are useless, but I don't believe there is a consensus which features are useless. Me: Fair enough. It's not the first time I hear this. It's not the first time this happens in software. I think this is if you see, for example, at how I mean, previously, now it's getting much better, but even in the recent like, this sounds like the way Google develops product in the sense that, like, how many chat apps did they have? At least five. And, like, which one of them is integrated where and which Android uses what chat app? Can I access on my TV? And can I use Google Meet Robin: No. Me: for chatting in chat? I don't know. No. Nothing. Nobody in Google doesn't know what Robin: Yep. Me: other parts of Google does. Right? It's it's not the first thing. It's not the it's not the first time, but what I hear very in a way, very fun for me to hear, and I think it's very, like, think there's there's a lot of there's a lot of of of of leverage to take in the sense is instead of trying to do 100 things somewhat well, find one thing, do it really in the sense it's like this, the saying in the valley is like, it's better than 10 people really love you than a thousand people, like, somewhat like you. So, like, 510 people that really, really, really love you, and build from there. And since I'm having a conversation with you, Robin: Yeah. Me: since we are only having, like, fifteen minutes left, right, Robin: Yeah. Me: what I want to ask you is, in your Robin: Yep. Yeah. Me: current Munich trip, or in the similar, recent projects that you did, Robin: Yep. Me: what is the one thing that you wish Techer as an app, not as a company, but as an app? Would do that would help you do your job. Twice as good or let's say twice as fast. Robin: Can I give you a bunch of different options? Because then, like, okay. So one thing that I've been clamoring for the the the the the app to do better is when I use the app as, like, a project management hub, Me: Right. Robin: It's not doing that very well. It's not doing a very good job at it. For example, you have so it divides the project in work streams, right, which is a fair and, like, the content of what it there is is pretty relevant most times. Then it subdevices those it subdevites those work streams into deliverables and then activities. But then, for example, when you report your progress, you'll say, oh, this activity have completed this activity I have completed it, and I'm even gonna attach a document to it. But it weighs everything the same way. Me: Uh-huh. Robin: So when you don't complete one task because, for example, it doesn't make sense, or you realize exposed that it doesn't make sense, then it it's it shows that you are behind on schedule. It is, therefore, immensely frustrating. You also sometimes come across a you you have a meeting with one of your senior clients, and they tell you, well, this is a little bit on the side of the project, but I want you to this kind of like so there's a new task being added. The software Me: Something else. Robin: know about it. You spend a bit of time fulfilling that task. And whilst you're doing that, the project thinks you're behind on the go Me: Mhmm. Robin: chart because the Gantt chart does not evolve, does not update itself along with the the the project. So you are systematically behind schedule, so it's Me: Mhmm. Robin: we have two options when you report on takeout. You are either in the red, or in the scarlet red. There is no way for you to beat the clock. Me: Yeah. Robin: It ought to be roughly on time. No fucking way you're on time. Based on on taker guidelines. And so to me, this is and, also, for example, not very good at at allocating a realistic timeline to a task. For example, when you have a deliverable, it will it will consider that the deliverable that making the presentation is the same time as another task about, like, how your meeting but having a Me: Yeah. Robin: takes one hour and building a presentation will take four days. So Me: They are Robin: it's like you and schedule all the time, so it's a it does a shit job at being a project management tool. So this is option number one. I believe it would be, like, it would provide me great value if, for example, instead of having the to do the progress updates to fill a example, to the other senior partner that we have attacker who is Bazaar, or to the clients even, for example. If I could just report what I do on Teker, and then it would be a one stop shop, like a hub of information. And everybody, instead of calling me saying, why are you on this task? You look at the app and would think, like, okay. He's doing this. This is great. This would be cool for it. Another option would be sometimes we have those online meetings, and we have now a tech or bot that records those online meetings. Then the checkerboard will generate two artifacts, a transcript, and a kind of a summary of key decisions made during that meeting. Me: Mhmm. Robin: However, do not give me a summary of the main talking points. Right? So it's it's gonna give me an exhaustive transcript Gemini style, or it's gonna give me but let's say, for example, you and I, we've had a conversation today, and I believe quite an interesting conversation. However, we haven't made a ton of decisions. Me: Yep. What happened? Robin: Look at the transcript on Taker. It's gonna be 30 pages. But if you look at the decisions made, it's gonna be cool lines. Me: Mhmm. Robin: They have agreed to meet again. Me: Yeah. Yeah. Robin: And there is no in between Me: Is Robin: There is nothing that would, for example, help you. To say, like, okay. Based on this conversation I had with this dude, what feature should I prioritize? Me: Yep. Robin: You cannot you cannot play around with that. And sometimes it's a little bit disheartening when you have, like, an interview, for example, someone an interview I'm talking about projects. For example, like, okay. What are the challenges that you're facing in your organization? You look at the transcripts, and it's 40 pages long. You look at the summary of decisions, there's barely anything. And then like, okay. Well, what did you talk about? Well, not every conversation is about this making decisions. The us Me: Yeah. Robin: You know? So it's like so Me: It's more it's more even so you talk about me, for example, but I'm also thinking about you. In the sense that you can still hear me. Right? Robin: Yep. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm just gonna work. I'm just gonna play with Me: It Don't worry. It's it's fine. I'm just like so you are thinking about me, and I'm also thinking about you because okay. Fair. I would have multiple other different tools that would help me Robin: Yep. Me: pinpoint four things or one thing that I should concentrate Granolah, they used to transcript this meeting, could help me out. Google transcript meet thing, whatever, could help me out. Like, there are other tools or maybe even custom chat prompt that I can customly prompt, feed them at TX of the transcript of the conversation, and help me out. Robin: Yep. Me: For you, are you I don't I don't see and I don't feel like there's something for you as well. And honestly speaking, Robin: From Me: last thing that I expected to hear is that you use this as a project management tool. Right? No. Wasn't on wasn't on my bingo card. But Robin: Yes. No. But I know. But then another I don't know. But another one of the the the features that I may wanna see on the app Sorry. No. Actually, could could do you mind repeating your last sentence you said the last thing I expected to hear is that Robin uses the tool as a project management tool. Me: I Robin: Why? Me: yeah, I wouldn't expect that you you you have a project. You have a list of artifacts attached to projects. Let's say this the streamline and the tasks and the deliverables and stuff. And then you would want to figure out at what point in the timeline we are right now and who actually wants something from me and who do I owe something and how do I come from being read or did you shit in the red? I forgot. Like, red super red. Robin: Yeah. Me: How do I come to, like, at least yellow? Robin: Yeah. Me: How do I come to, like, a little bit of turquoise green? Like, I I did not expect that this would be the need that you would ask. Robin: No, Me: From the Robin: But you know why, though? You know why I have this I have this? Because okay. The way that our projects are structured at Tega is I'm the lead consultant. But essentially, on my projects, I'm the only consultant. So Me: Mhmm. Robin: For me, have two guys internally. On the client side, I have so for this project right now, for example, my client is a task force of four very senior people. That are helped themselves by four or five contributors within the company. So I have nine people on the client side, Me: Mhmm. Robin: two people on the on the the internal side. So you have nine people 11 people day in and day out, on my back. Me: Yep. Robin: Like, the world they reside is right here. And so Me: And you something. Robin: the the cell Me: And you owe them something. Like, they want something from you. Robin: c'est l'algame And I owe something to one of them. And because it's a project that very strategic, for example, at the moment, well, everybody's, you know, on their last nerve kind of think I'm doing a good job at reassuring everybody and at delivering, so it's okay. And but, for example, for the first couple, for the first couple of weeks, everybody's on, like, oh, but what what where is this document? Like, how how much progress have you made on this task? And when there are when there is a multiple of stakeholders like this that have kind of I wanna say conflicting interest, but at least diverse interest. Because they are not interested or in the same deliverable and the same topic, etcetera. Well, then it it would be cute to have a a a hub of information where they log on, and they would see, like, okay. This task has been performed. Let me have a direct access to the deliverable without having call Robin at 3AM. You know? So this is the reason why this is the reason why I I'm talking about a project manager too because when you have people on the client side and people internally, it kind of squeezes the lemon a little bit too tight. Me: And you are the lemon. Robin: And I'm the lemon. Me: Men among many other things. Listen. This is super helpful for me, and I I thank you because what I can also hear, what I can also understand is, like, is you and you said this. Like, love your job. You think you are good at it, you would like to be doing the job. Let's say, like, consultant magic you would like to be doing and you are doing a lot of admin tasks. Right? Like, back and forth updating, letting people know, and Robin: I think so. Me: it's time consuming. It takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of energy. Robin: So Me: Also, if you need to, like, repeat something to three people, the same thing. You get annoyed. Like, do you want it or not? But this is where it hurts. Robin: Yeah. Yeah. Me: For you. And then you maybe don't have that much energy left to Robin: And I think I think progress updates is not Me: Mhmm. Robin: a task that is super value accretive at the end of the day. Me: Yeah. Robin: Like, we don't create a ton of tasks. You don't create don't know. For example, let's say, I I had that conversation this weekend. The like, would your time at home doing the chores Me: Yep. Robin: be best used doing the chores, or would be best used saying, hey, honey. So I've done I've hovered the house, and I folded the laundry, and I've done this, and I've done that. No. No. No. Your time is better used actually doing the thing. And so kind of eliminating all this polluting noise around it and allowing you to focus on where you you you really shine, where you really create the the most value for the customer. This is this is the reason why we use those tools, right, in order to kind of focus the value on on what you do best. Me: And you think let's say let's imagine a world in which, like, let let's say, you get what you ask. Right? And not talking me as a product manager for techer. Robin: Yep. Me: Right now, even though I'm assumed to be in the role. But if this existed already, Robin: Yep. No. No. Me: right, if this would be something, a project that I come to and I have to, like, develop further, or find another growth potential in in this case. But this is the one thing the one date that sparked the the joy and you think, alright, this is the person. This is the thing. This is the feature Robin: Yep. Me: Maybe kids, but moving in together in a year, definitely feasible. Do you think you would be able to like, do the existing projects much better or you would be able to take on more projects? What do you think this would enable you to do? Robin: Oh, Me: Or what would you hope this would enable you to do? Robin: Well, so I think I think there's me as kind of a direct user, but then there are there are there are almost two populations of users or three populations of users. There's me. Me: Yep. Robin: There's the internal users, and there is the client level users. And so for me, it would enable me to go faster because I skipped the project update the progress of the tasks. It would for my internal project for my internal feature users, wanna say and external, it would give them reassurance, trust, Me: Yeah. Robin: It would it would it would what's it would I it's it's hardly quantifiable. But Me: You know, Robin: rend des comptes, il fera Me: You know, not everything that should be measured that can be measured should be measured. And not that Robin: We have to think about this. But the but, see, for example, if the day that you are project open a product manager, sorry, attacker. We are to work on this, like, understand this is interviewing, and this is all, like, this is all simulation and whatever. But but the data actually starts working on this, I would love for you to test out because you'll see you you'll see like, you'll meet five different Robins at the account. Right? Like, very opinionated people. And and I expect you, the the person who will sell this role, to be very structured around it, and to be like, okay. Thank you very much for your input. I wanna test that with real life users because I am fully prepared for you to tell me there are a 100 project management tools that are free of charge, that are white label, on the market. We don't need another one. Take us not the best position to do it. Me: So Robin: I I have a an instinct that it's gonna be the outcome and that my idea, my personal desire is not the billion dollar solution. Me: Mhmm. Robin: Something tells me that it's not the case because I I don't know. I don't find that my solution that my need is super innovative. You know? So, yeah, maybe like, I'm I'm I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just saying Me: Yep. So Robin: this is this is me. This is my opinion. Me: Yep. Just as a concluding thought, I want to know that this is like, I stick back to the thing that I said previously. Robin: Yeah. Me: That Paul Graham said, who is, like, the godfather of y combinator in the valley, and the one that has, like, scaled more startups than we can mention in our life time. It's like, it's better a, it's better to find 10 people that really love you Robin: Yeah. Me: as opposed to a 100 people that kind of somewhat somehow tolerate you. This is number one. Point number two, have an interview with you, and I hope I will meet a couple more, Robins, or Robin: Yeah. Me: many of Robins there are. Hope I will be able to talk to Philip about how he sees this this. But I have an hour with you, and I was super glad Robin: Yep. Me: to hear your point. And I see you were also super opinionated and super Robin: Yeah. Me: excited Robin: Yeah. Me: in the sense that alright. I don't know if it's a billion dollar idea, but it's gonna save me two hours a month. Sorry. Two hours a week of more ten hours a week. Robin: Yeah. And he's gonna give peace of mind to a bunch of different internal as well as external stakeholders. So in my opinion, there is value to be found there even though it may not be the utmost value. Me: And you wake up and you do the you you you think more of an actual job you were hired to do. And less of the administrative around the job. Again, like, it's just one interview. Maybe it doesn't go anywhere. Maybe it does, but I appreciate the time a lot. And I I appreciate you helping helping me out along the way. Yeah. Is there anything else concluding that you would like to see sorry, to say that I didn't mention or you didn't mention that we didn't touch on the conversation? Robin: Yeah. Yeah. I think there is one thing. I think there is one thing. This is I I believe I've said that to you in different parts throughout our conversation today, but first of all, this chair is very uncomfortable. I'm, like, looking down on you. I'm, like, bending over like this. But, no. There is one thing I think I I I I've said at different points, but let me say it in one go. For this role in particular, we are looking for someone who is senior enough to be, a facilitator of different decisions. Right? For example, if we have a a workshop, like an internal workshop, about the direction, the the product road map, the whatever. Like, we we need you. We want you to be senior, to be opinionated, to be structured, to be, like, into to also be a little bit assertive in a way that present yourself in a way that you lead the conversation And and this is why I'm telling you for example, the inputs that I've given you today you take that as nothing more than an input. Based on what I've described, if you have a strong sense, a strong belief, that I'm leading you in the wrong direction, do not hesitate to go with your gut or with your more structured approach, with your more informed take on this. Because we don't need someone who's going to execute Me: What's toll? Robin: what we what's what he's told or what what she's told if we say we won't take her to be an app to to to to whatever. Like, we we want someone that's gonna be the voice of reason. Me: Mhmm. Robin: And the voice of, like, Switzerland, like, the voice of undeniable product truth. If you believe for some reason that what I've told you today is bollocks, Don't go with Bolox. You know? Be like, have a a little bit of a of a critical mindset about about it, and do not hesitate to I I swear, I will not be taking it personal. If you if you don't go with with what I am what I expressed today, just letting you know, like, you can this is also a company that's very you know, we are all about the same age range, and you will be very much encouraged at Teker to also be very opinionated. You know? One of the the the the other people that I've of insurance use or whatever for for this position has asked me. Whether or not it's a safe environment. So a safe environment, in the beginning, I thought he met physically. I was like, yeah. But, no, actually, But but but but now that I think about it, I do believe it's a super safe environment because it's it's an environment where it can speak your mind. You will not be, like, you will not be punished on whether or not you agree, you disagree, like, you can you can vehemently stand for your opinions. Me: And you do. You use you use words that I wouldn't Robin: So just Me: or I would, but, like, I I I can hear it from you. I it's Robin: I'm I'm just encouraging you, honestly, to take a little bit of distance with what everybody else and to really, like, play for your own team. If you believe in in something, if you have a a diverging opinion from what I shared today, don't hesitate to go with your gut and to be a little bit assertive about it because we like that a lot here. Me: Of course. No. I I appreciate it a lot, I I did my part here. This conversation went into a very direction. Again, I I expected a little bit of a different conversation, but I'm glad we had the one that we did. And, again, you used swear words. You used French romantic analogies. You talked about having kids and dating a person. Like, we we didn't yet talk about sex, but, like, Robin: No. Me: the two hour conversation, it would probably happen. I don't know. So I Robin: I'll just which I I would not I would not. Me: can see this, and I can I mean it in the best way just FYI Like, I I I don't mean this as a harassment or something? It's just like I see this from the way you you talk. I see this from from from the way you have you've helped me out here. And you've you've conducted this interview. And, yeah, I I thank you dearly, and I hope to talk to you again. Robin: I would like that. I would like that. I would like that. Well, thank you very much, Daniel, and I wish you a very good day. Me: Enjoy Munich. Enjoy Robin: I'm Me: enjoy the Robin: Marienplatz this evening. For the the the isn't it called Marianplatz? The one near the rat house for the Me: They have Robin: this market. Me: they have this they have a super nice Christmas market there, and they also have a super nice France Franciscana beer garden there. Robin: Oh, I'm just gonna go Oh, I'm just gonna go to the Christian part. Yeah. So much, and I would be very nice that Me: I'll talk to Mike. Robin: bye.